One more thought as well: You can’t have it both ways.

You can’t say on one hand: Lets ‘ride this wave’ created by Mark; and then on the other, say that prolonged spirited discussion about his critique is ‘endless arguments’. That is a slightly disingenuous use of the those texts in Timothy and Titus.

I’m all for just getting on with mission, but some robust dialogue needs to take place as to how we do it. I know that you all agree with that. That’s not necessarily ‘endless arguments’. It may be Spirit-led. Even the stuff that critiques Mark’s critique.

Gone-sky (really, this time!)

Get to it, mate! You are in the center of town? Fix, right? Plenty of work to do there.

Gone-sky.

Justin – point noted re: criticism

but gee i wish some people would just stop talking about it, get up from their computers and go make disciples of all nations

Doesn’t Paul smash guys for having endless arguments which undermine the gospel and distract from mission? (1Timothy 1:4, 4:7; 6:4 2 Tim. 4:4; Titus 1:14; 2 Pet. 1:16; Titus 3:9).

Can legitimate gospel discussions turn into endless arguments which distract from mission?

keep trusting and proclaiming Jesus.

I haven’t seen any examples of anyone critiquing and then rejected the lot. Is there anyone who has done that?

Let the criticism take place!

Shane — not sure what you are saying, mate. Sydney is steeped in criticism. People critique is all the time. They critique it from the outside and the inside. We have copped it non-stop. And we take it from our own team. What do you mean by we are not good at receiving critique?

Like Dave my fear is that in jumping on the defensive too quickly there is the danger of dismissing all.
my concern is not just that we discern, but also the way in which we discern things.

we can defend the truth without becoing defensive and dismissive.
we can hold on to the truth in humility without smug haughtiness.
we can engage rightly in theological critique without being rude and self righteous.

frankly we in Sydney are rich in critiquing and poor at being critiqued.
It is exactly the point you make Justin – that criticism (from outlside) is being belittled (with our own exegetically superior criticisms).

the gospel is too important – not only in its integrity, but in its progress as we seek to reform our structures to promote more bold gospel initiatives.

if we don’t preserve it where in trouble and if we don’t pass it on to the next generation of pastors and planters we’re also in trouble.

blessings

just a freinds cheeky thoughts ,,,what do you reckon ?

very cheeky!

justin said:

But the moment we belittle a criticism is a moment that we either become a cult (at best), or a people who grieve the Holy Spirit by stopping the testing of the spirits (at worst).

i’m obviously not against criticism… the first line of this post was criticism! what i’m disappointed by is the manner of the criticism (hence my linking to joshua harris’ humble orthodoxy stuff) and i feel that there is a great danger of missing the many good things to come from driscoll’s 18 points because we are so concerned with defending each and every detail of what has been said in a way that we wouldn’t say it.

does that make sense?

Let’s grow Christ’s Kingdom by proclaiming Jesus, growing mature believers who serve an proclaim Him. But the moment we belittle a criticism is a moment that we either become a cult (at best), or a people who grieve the Holy Spirit by stopping the testing of the spirits (at worst).

Plant and grow churches, but never belittle criticism, gentleman. The gospel is too important.

“Movements are led by a figurehead who defends the values, gives integrity, a person attacked, maligned, and appreciated when they are dead.
Organisations become institutions when they preserve the innovation of a prior generation. You love the system & you participate in it. There is a fear of failure, a preservation of old wins, founders friends take the seats of leadership and young blokes leave for a new movement. Those maintaining the insitution feel resentment but your permission is taking too long.
A museum exists to tell the stories of when God worked in the good old days.
Where are the aggressive young men.”

Now try inserting the following:

Movements are led by a figurehead who defends the values, gives integrity, a person attacked, maligned, and appreciated when they are dead. (Philip Jensen, Peter Jensen etc )
Organisations become institutions when they (the last version of syd angs and its affiliates ) preserve the innovation of a prior generation (Philip). You (Phil’s dopplegangers ) love the system & you participate in it. There is a fear of failure, a preservation of old wins (MTS, AFES, unichurches, church plants now established ), founders friends take the seats of leadership (long list here of kosher mates with battle scars) and young blokes leave for a new movement.(the great threat) Those maintaining the insitution feel resentment but your permission is taking too long.
A museum exists to tell the stories of when God worked in the good old days.(the good bits are not the orginal bits but the Philip bits… we’ve been hearing this for 20 years)
Where are the aggressive young men?

just a freinds cheeky thoughts ,,,what do you reckon ?

how is the Christian group going at your school?

praying you’d keep being excited about proclaiming Jesus.

i was there at Burn Your Plastic Jesus and thought Driscoll was good
im so pumped to plant a church when im older

Ed S. (an old poddy listener)

Shoot me a quick email to point me to the critical blogs – I wanna read them for myself.

Some people just need to grow up. I reckon Driscoll is one of the best things to happen to the church in Australia. Was stoked the other day to see that He holds number one position in the Christian section of the Australain iTunes store.

So like him or lump him, he’s here to stay. But please send me those links.

do you guys think his critique on prohibiting structures and a restrictive church culture are right?

i think so. i think that as a movement becomes more institutional, that will invariably happen. the key is to not be tied to structures such that they are the only option. we need guys to keep slogging it out in systems… but we also need guys to fly out from the systems and be creative and do stuff that can’t be done from within the system. i’m thankful to God for andrew heard that he left the system and began a new work on the central coast… did i become a Christian through it?? maybe… if nothing else it was by being part of ccec that i properly understood the death and resurrection of Jesus and how it ought to impact on every part of my life.

——–
Mike said:

I’m up for it man. But I think I might be number 2.

are you planning on staying in tassie? or are there other options? any plans for joining the other tasmanians at moore?

———-
Steven said:

I suspect the strong emotions were in reaction to some of the very cutting points Driscoll made during the talk. How I wonder if his reaction was more because Driscoll was so on point that it made him awfully uncomfortable with having to change!

good point. i know that there are times i respond strongly in my marriage are normally in context where i was so wrong and rowena’s words cut me because they are true!

steven – you are currently doing an traineeship with your church… is that right? what are you planning on doing next year and beyond?