geoffc – I need to be careful of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater and be thankful for his ministry. – good call homeboy.

and this, I think, is where he hits the nail on the head, and here we have not only the type of man Jesus was but the type of man he calls us to be and also the type of God we worship. I could probably leave out the blue collar carpenter bit, the similarities between first century carpentry and 21st century tradesmen is probably not that close.

But as much as this type of thing can sometimes annoy me, often his cultural analysis is spot on and it’s obvious many man has benefited from hearing his “man up” rants. I need to be careful of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater and be thankful for his ministry.

I’m actually listening to a sermon on pastors at the moment from him and this is a direct quote, “tell the men of other men who are exemplary and worthy of honour” the whole gist of about 5 minutes was on encouraging men to be better husbands and fathers and sons.

When he tells men to “man up” he almost always draws the correlation to Jesus as being the ultimate example of manhood. He may not in this particular video, but I can asure you that in almost every other sermon on the topic he does. Alot of what he says is that while Jesus had some atributes that we equate with women he was a masculine man, he was a blue colour worker, a carpenter, he suffered inordinate pain for his bride, etc. I hope that help to clear a few things up.

“I have never felt I didn’t measure up until Driscoll”

I mean that for the most part any behavior– really just about any behavior– is ok for a guy in our society. It’s written off as, boys will be boys, or some other appeasing motto. What Driscoll does is take men out of the bible and show how we don’t match up. I don’t feel like his heart is to just belittle us for the sake of a good joke, but instead give us some good perspective.

Its plays out like this. For me, before I started to follow Christ, I would take a look at my classmates and friends and see how I would measure up. I always felt pretty good, I felt pretty manly and therefore thought I could do what men do, drink, have sex, you know the general. After becoming a Christian my eyes have been opened to many things, the greatest of which is the absolute scale of masculinity.

Other pastors implore you to change, Driscoll demands it. As a guy, I respond to challenges and demands, just wired that way.

I hope that proved a brief look into my heart about masculinity. I have been studying this quiet a bit in the couple years I have been a Christian, so I by no means think I have it all right, this is just my experience.

I actually agree with Mark’s points for the most part about men to stop behaving like boys and I think he hits the nail on the head on quite a few issues.

My experience in the majority of Christian circles I’ve been in is pretty similar to what Mark articulates. For the most part a lot of men do need a kick up the butts, even if Mark is a bit reductionistic in his presentation of it

Sorry, I shouldn’t just come in with unhelpful one liners like that.

I will say that this is not one of his better clips.

I’m a guy, and I don’t think the cruddy exegesis method should be used…

here’s the sermon he’s talking about
http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/trial/marriage-and-men

I have had many pastors talk about the ideals of masculinity, but I have never felt I didn’t measure up until Driscoll. Since then I have seen lots of Driscoll and I will say that this is not one of his better clips. He does focus on the social markers of a man, and not spiritual ones. This being said, if you would like to see a much better, and longer address to men search for his Marriage and Men sermon. Much more intentional about the Christ part of masculinity.

peaceout

Maybe this is an American culture thing and/or generational thing, but I think Driscoll’s humor, sarcasm, and name calling is a pretty effective technique, at least for me. And from what I’ve seen, people of my generation tend to gravitate towards it. I think if it were only tearing people down, we would not line up week after week to take our beating. There are plenty of other preachers out there who deliver their message in a kind and gentle way, and personally I find myself not taking their rebukes as seriously. The humor is like a sugar coating that makes a much needed kick in the butt easier to take… I find myself laughing so don’t just shut down and stop listening, but at the same time the message sinks in. Don’t know if that makes sense.

I think the discussion about the difference between growing into “manhood” vs growing into a mature Christian is pretty thought-provoking. Ultimately I think what Driscoll is trying to do is cause young men to examine their hearts by looking at the fruit they are producing, but I think he doesn’t necessarily do a good job of clarifying that point. Men are called to be cultivators, and I think this sermon was geared not towards Christian men who are growing into maturity and have a heart to cultivate but are unable to do these cultural things due to circumstances. There are a whole slew of “adolescent” guys out there who have no direction, no drive, no desire to get a job, no intention of moving out of their parent’s house or anything else that would take a substantial amount of work, change, and growth on their part. I have seen it in so many young men (some of whom are nonbelievers, some are immature Christians), and that mindset is absolutely a hindrance to maturity in Christ.

Finally, I wanted to respond to Dani’s comment about women looking for/feeling entitled to these attributes in a man. I think it’s a good thing. So many young Christian women I know want so badly to be married that they have a tendency to compromise on who they marry. If an immature Christian woman marries a man with a strong heart for Christ then he will lead her in a way that causes her to grow in Christ. If an immature Chrstian woman marries a guy who just wants to sit around and be taken care of, who has no desire to step up and lead a family, no desire to work and provide for a family, etc, then she ends up being more like a mother than a wife to him. And in most cases I’ve seen, she doesn’t even know she should demand more of him!! Women just laugh it off with their girlfriends when really they should be striving for maturity in Christ and being a help-mate to their husband by calling him out in his sin. I think the intent for women here is to keep them from settling for a husband who isn’t growing in Christ – whether they’re married or single.

Anway, gotta run. Thanks all for sharing your thoughts.

i dunno – i like the idea of calling them men and encouraging them be be godly men.

….

back to study!

thanks for the comments

(congrats jen on first comments!!!)

————–
sorry for the delay in getting back to you all.

i’d love to interact more with what you’ve all said… but don’t have heaps of time now to do so…

one quick comment i’ve been mulling over…
i think that Christian guys like this – and maybe even NEED this!
i know i more often than not need a kick in the butt rather than a gentle word.
i know of many guys, both personally and anecdotally, that have found this as a key thing that God has used to either help them become Christian, or in the very least get them to take Christian maturity (and their lack of it) seriously.

I must say I agree with Dani’s points. Actually I just found so much wrong with this whole clip which I watched on the weekend.

Besides the things that Mark got out of that verse which were not there – he seemed to be saying what makes a man is leave home/get a job/get married/have kids. I watched the whole thing to see if he ever said anything different – but sadly he did not. I don’t think this is at the core of Christian manhood. What about men who lose their job, are single, childless. Where is Christian character and godliness in all this, where men can be Christian men in whatever state they are at at the moment.

The other thing that greatly concerns me is the ridicule and name-calling that happens here, and in other things I’ve seen.

I was in a church for many years where this was happening. My experience is that instead of leading to growth in maturity it actually led to immaturity. People come to be dependent on more and more telling off to motivate them.

We heard Hebrews 5:2 in church this week – it really struck me as it was after I had seen this video. The High priest is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness.

Just to finish with a quote from a U.S. book written back in 1988 to counteract this in the Reformed churches at that time “Shepherding God’s Flock”
“One of the great evils that nearly always accompanies true revival is the tendency in the human heart to attempt by various means to imitate true spiritual awakening and interest. Preachers, therefore, need to be exceedingly careful not to encourage this evil by stern and accusatory pulpit bullying, the kind that berates the flock as if it were an openly rebellious crowd of apostates.”

Enjoyed the “Myth of Adolescence” posts.

Kat and I have been thinking about the teenage guys in our youth group, who are referred to by some leaders as “boys” but by others as “men.”

Just wondering which you think is more appropriate?

I’m assuming those who refer to their guys as “men” do so because they want them to act like men, but does this send them the wrong message about what a man is? They are still in school after all…are they really men?

But on the other hand, are those who refer to their guys as “boys” selling them short? (Is this where the Harris brothers go with their book? Haven’t read it…)

Keen to hear your thoughts!

Nathan

Yeah sorry – I took us off tangent from your original questions! I’ve just been doing some thinking about these ‘Be a man’ exhortations which have become more and more common recently and so took the opportunity to have a bit of a rant

In response:

- I have no doubt that the guilt/ridicule method is accompanied at other times by much more helpful and gentle words. I’m not sure how ‘regular’ it is (I haven’t listened to stacks of his stuff though I do have to say that each time I have heard him give the ‘be a man’ talk the presentation has been very similar to the above). My question is whether it is appropriate at ANY point. I just think we are in danger of creating a christian culture which has an unfortunate tendency to vilify men rather than to rebuke and train them in more helpful ways. I think the flipside is that women may begin to have a sense of entitlement to find/marry their own ‘real man’ (in other words, develop unhelpful expectations and ideals).

- You wrote “i do think there is a clear picture in scripture of christian maturity as moving from infancy to adulthood (eg. eph 4:14, 1 cor 14:20, heb 5:12-13)”. Yes, I agree. But as you said, the progress described in those verses is about moving from infancy IN CHRIST to maturity IN CHRIST. Not about growing up from a boy to a man in cultural terms (which is where Driscoll’s emphasis is). Each of those passages uses the child –> adult transition as a picture of growth in christian maturity, not in cultural male maturity. Again, I do think he gives a helpful critique of what our (or at least of American) culture. However, I don’t think the answer is to encourage men to be ‘mature manly men’, but to be ‘mature Christians’ (which will then be manifested in a range of arenas within the male christian’s life).

I know it seems like I am splitting straws a bit! It’s just that I have been reading a bit of stuff coming out of the States at the moment where it seems that the counsel to Christian men is more and more focused on becoming a real man (whatever that is) rather than christian maturity.

Hope the exams go well!! I remember the days well … and am glad that they are now YOUR days and not mine