Here is an extended snippet where Driscoll gives a smackdown to ‘Boys who can shave’ – that is – they have failed to make the step from child to man. Some of you may be put off by Driscoll’s hyperbolic rhetoric or even think he’s clutching at straws in making this point from this passage of scripture. Regardless, this is good social commentary and cultural critique, with a robust call for men to be real men. It’s valuable for thinking through how we go about ministry to youth and young adults. Maybe we shouldn’t do youth and young adult ministry if it will only help to perpetuate Peter Pans???
I don’t think the answer is necessarily to ditch ministry to youth and young adults, but I do think it changes how you minister to young men. Alex & Brett Harris have a great chapter in their book Do Hard Things on ‘The Myth of Adolescence’. Check out two of their original blog posts that make up some of the chapter:
How does this help you think through how to be man & how to minister to young men?
Nice. I liked the quote:
“it’s not sinful”
“neither is eating your lawnmower. It’s just dumb”
lol
Hey Dave,
Yep. I DO think he is clutching at some VERY tenuous straws making that point from that part of Scripture.
Don’t get me wrong- I do think he has some helpful things to say to christian men (particularly the last few minutes), and as you said it may be a fairly good commentary on (especially American) culture. Indeed, the first time I heard Mark Driscoll do this ‘Men need to step up and be real men’ spiel I was pretty impressed and thankful that he was willing to say the hard words.
However, the more I hear it (and I do indeed keep hearing it more and more – not just from Mark Driscoll either), the more concerned I am about some of the implicit assumptions running through it, about the theology behind it, and about the way in which it is delivered. So… a couple of quick thoughts after listening to the excerpt above.
– I don’t see how laying on guilt (“it’s unbelievable.. you’re kidding me… are you serious… it’s really sad”) or name calling (“evangelical christian men are either cowards or complainers… I make fun of you because you’re a joke OK”) or ridicule (where he puts on those voices) is helpful in encouraging christian men to stand apart from the world and for Christ. If you listen to the laughter in the background it is overwhelmingly female laughter. Is it really a helpful or appropriate thing to be ridiculing and patronising christian men in front of their christian sisters (and in fact other brothers) like this? Surely this only tears them down rather than building them up. Does Paul pastor men like this in Scripture? No, I don’t think he does. He says the hard words but he says them with gentleness, respect, sincerity and love. Not with hyperbole, caricturisation, ridicule and guilt.
– I continue to be puzzled and concerned by the constant theological refrain in these public exhortations that the Bible says a real man isn’t a real man until he leaves his parents home. The Bible doesn’t say that. The Bible says that a man will leave his parents and cling to his wife once he is married. The whole of Genesis 2:24 is in the context of marriage. Yet EVERY time Mark Driscoll (or comparable preachers) address this topic they continue to say that the mark of someone who is no longer a boy but a man will be that he has moved out of home.
– Whilst I think there is at least some legitimate biblical foundation for his ‘get a job’ exhortation (eg 1 Tim 5:8) I can’t help but wonder about the impact this continual refrain has on Christian men who are either long-term unemployed or unable to work. Does this mean that they are not real men in God’s sight? I’m increasingly concerned about the pastoral implications of this.
– I might be wrong on this so more than happy to be corrected… but I don’t think Scripture is primarily concerned with the journey from boy to man (or from girl to woman). Instead it tells us that our journey is one of sanctification, a journey from sinner to saint. Of course, part of that journey is obeying God’s design for men and women (particularly in the home and the church), but the key goal for any male christian is growing in holiness, not in manhood. A real man isn’t someone who conforms himself to the likeness of some ideal form of manhood (in fact this strikes me as more Platonic than scriptural). Rather he will be someone who conforms himself to the likeness of Christ.
Thoughts?
hey dani – thanks for dropping by. did you know you were one of the first couple of bloggers i started reading back in… maybe 2001?? – anyway – there you go!!
first – let me be honest. i haven’t “watched” the above video. i had it on in the background while i was doing study this morning. so in no way do i plan to defend the content or delivery of everything he says!!
so i really posted it because of issues it raised about the whole “myth of adolescence”. i think that this was good. it’s something i’ve a bit of thinking on – and as someone involved in youth ministry, it raises serious questions of how to go about ministering to that age group.
as far as all your points.
i’ll be quick – i’ve gotta get back to exam cramming!!
but…
1) laying on of guilt. i know what you mean. from my observations on marshill – guys have responded well to that style – and their seems to be legit fruit??
regardless – if that is the only method employed – i’d agree with you. i guess there is a question of what’s the regular diet in the preaching. i remember him repenting in a talk from philippians for his lack of humility for years previous. i know that i’ve heard plenty of stuff where he is paul-like with incredible gentleness and pastoral sensitivity.
2) leaving home. i agree.
3) get a job. helpful point.
4) boyz II men (still love those fellas!!). i think you raise some good gear. love the point about being conformed to the likeness of Jesus.
but – i do think there is a clear picture in scripture of christian maturity as moving from infancy to adulthood (eg. eph 4:14, 1 cor 14:20, heb 5:12-13). so don’t think it’s too much of a stretch. i think that rather than manhood being in contrast to sanctification/holiness, it’s a subset of it.
thanks for the interaction.
Part of the difficulty (there are many with Driscoll aren’t there?) is knowing when the sarcasm starts and finishes. I imagine there would be quite an uproar if one of the Jensens got up and said “this passages addresses the male losers”. It’s hard to know how much he is joking when he says it, and how much is a a stern-warning or rebuke.
Hey Dave,
Yeah sorry – I took us off tangent from your original questions! I’ve just been doing some thinking about these ‘Be a man’ exhortations which have become more and more common recently and so took the opportunity to have a bit of a rant ;)
In response:
– I have no doubt that the guilt/ridicule method is accompanied at other times by much more helpful and gentle words. I’m not sure how ‘regular’ it is (I haven’t listened to stacks of his stuff though I do have to say that each time I have heard him give the ‘be a man’ talk the presentation has been very similar to the above). My question is whether it is appropriate at ANY point. I just think we are in danger of creating a christian culture which has an unfortunate tendency to vilify men rather than to rebuke and train them in more helpful ways. I think the flipside is that women may begin to have a sense of entitlement to find/marry their own ‘real man’ (in other words, develop unhelpful expectations and ideals).
– You wrote “i do think there is a clear picture in scripture of christian maturity as moving from infancy to adulthood (eg. eph 4:14, 1 cor 14:20, heb 5:12-13)”. Yes, I agree. But as you said, the progress described in those verses is about moving from infancy IN CHRIST to maturity IN CHRIST. Not about growing up from a boy to a man in cultural terms (which is where Driscoll’s emphasis is). Each of those passages uses the child –> adult transition as a picture of growth in christian maturity, not in cultural male maturity. Again, I do think he gives a helpful critique of what our (or at least of American) culture. However, I don’t think the answer is to encourage men to be ‘mature manly men’, but to be ‘mature Christians’ (which will then be manifested in a range of arenas within the male christian’s life).
I know it seems like I am splitting straws a bit! It’s just that I have been reading a bit of stuff coming out of the States at the moment where it seems that the counsel to Christian men is more and more focused on becoming a real man (whatever that is) rather than christian maturity.
Hope the exams go well!! I remember the days well … and am glad that they are now YOUR days and not mine ;)
Hi Dave,
Enjoyed the “Myth of Adolescence” posts.
Kat and I have been thinking about the teenage guys in our youth group, who are referred to by some leaders as “boys” but by others as “men.”
Just wondering which you think is more appropriate?
I’m assuming those who refer to their guys as “men” do so because they want them to act like men, but does this send them the wrong message about what a man is? They are still in school after all…are they really men?
But on the other hand, are those who refer to their guys as “boys” selling them short? (Is this where the Harris brothers go with their book? Haven’t read it…)
Keen to hear your thoughts!
Nathan
First time commentor!
I must say I agree with Dani’s points. Actually I just found so much wrong with this whole clip which I watched on the weekend.
Besides the things that Mark got out of that verse which were not there – he seemed to be saying what makes a man is leave home/get a job/get married/have kids. I watched the whole thing to see if he ever said anything different – but sadly he did not. I don’t think this is at the core of Christian manhood. What about men who lose their job, are single, childless. Where is Christian character and godliness in all this, where men can be Christian men in whatever state they are at at the moment.
The other thing that greatly concerns me is the ridicule and name-calling that happens here, and in other things I’ve seen.
I was in a church for many years where this was happening. My experience is that instead of leading to growth in maturity it actually led to immaturity. People come to be dependent on more and more telling off to motivate them.
We heard Hebrews 5:2 in church this week – it really struck me as it was after I had seen this video. The High priest is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness.
Just to finish with a quote from a U.S. book written back in 1988 to counteract this in the Reformed churches at that time “Shepherding God’s Flock”
“One of the great evils that nearly always accompanies true revival is the tendency in the human heart to attempt by various means to imitate true spiritual awakening and interest. Preachers, therefore, need to be exceedingly careful not to encourage this evil by stern and accusatory pulpit bullying, the kind that berates the flock as if it were an openly rebellious crowd of apostates.”
hey geoff, dani, nathan and jennifer.
thanks for the comments
(congrats jen on first comments!!!)
————–
sorry for the delay in getting back to you all.
i’d love to interact more with what you’ve all said… but don’t have heaps of time now to do so…
one quick comment i’ve been mulling over…
i think that Christian guys like this – and maybe even NEED this!
i know i more often than not need a kick in the butt rather than a gentle word.
i know of many guys, both personally and anecdotally, that have found this as a key thing that God has used to either help them become Christian, or in the very least get them to take Christian maturity (and their lack of it) seriously.
@nathan
as far as using boys or men… i think so much is about the context of the interactions.
ie – both can be unhelpful… so whichever you use – seek to use helpfully!!
i often say “gentlemen”
or “fellas” or “guys”
i dunno – i like the idea of calling them men and encouraging them be be godly men.
….
back to study!
Hey all, first time commenter as well, have a couple of thoughts to share.
Maybe this is an American culture thing and/or generational thing, but I think Driscoll’s humor, sarcasm, and name calling is a pretty effective technique, at least for me. And from what I’ve seen, people of my generation tend to gravitate towards it. I think if it were only tearing people down, we would not line up week after week to take our beating. There are plenty of other preachers out there who deliver their message in a kind and gentle way, and personally I find myself not taking their rebukes as seriously. The humor is like a sugar coating that makes a much needed kick in the butt easier to take… I find myself laughing so don’t just shut down and stop listening, but at the same time the message sinks in. Don’t know if that makes sense.
I think the discussion about the difference between growing into “manhood” vs growing into a mature Christian is pretty thought-provoking. Ultimately I think what Driscoll is trying to do is cause young men to examine their hearts by looking at the fruit they are producing, but I think he doesn’t necessarily do a good job of clarifying that point. Men are called to be cultivators, and I think this sermon was geared not towards Christian men who are growing into maturity and have a heart to cultivate but are unable to do these cultural things due to circumstances. There are a whole slew of “adolescent” guys out there who have no direction, no drive, no desire to get a job, no intention of moving out of their parent’s house or anything else that would take a substantial amount of work, change, and growth on their part. I have seen it in so many young men (some of whom are nonbelievers, some are immature Christians), and that mindset is absolutely a hindrance to maturity in Christ.
Finally, I wanted to respond to Dani’s comment about women looking for/feeling entitled to these attributes in a man. I think it’s a good thing. So many young Christian women I know want so badly to be married that they have a tendency to compromise on who they marry. If an immature Christian woman marries a man with a strong heart for Christ then he will lead her in a way that causes her to grow in Christ. If an immature Chrstian woman marries a guy who just wants to sit around and be taken care of, who has no desire to step up and lead a family, no desire to work and provide for a family, etc, then she ends up being more like a mother than a wife to him. And in most cases I’ve seen, she doesn’t even know she should demand more of him!! Women just laugh it off with their girlfriends when really they should be striving for maturity in Christ and being a help-mate to their husband by calling him out in his sin. I think the intent for women here is to keep them from settling for a husband who isn’t growing in Christ – whether they’re married or single.
Anway, gotta run. Thanks all for sharing your thoughts.
hey casey – thanks for your contribution.
peaceout
So I after reading the thread on this I have noticed a trend, the girls (I am assuming from their names Dani and Jennifer), think that this method should not be used, and the guys responding seem to think otherwise. I think that its not a coincidence. Could this be the same attitude that is producing these “boys that can shave”. As he said, it are the women who enable us.
I have had many pastors talk about the ideals of masculinity, but I have never felt I didn’t measure up until Driscoll. Since then I have seen lots of Driscoll and I will say that this is not one of his better clips. He does focus on the social markers of a man, and not spiritual ones. This being said, if you would like to see a much better, and longer address to men search for his Marriage and Men sermon. Much more intentional about the Christ part of masculinity.
interesting observation mike.
here’s the sermon he’s talking about
http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/trial/marriage-and-men
think that this method should not be used
I’m a guy, and I don’t think the cruddy exegesis method should be used…
geoff. context. mike isn’t arguing for cruddy exegesis – no-one is!!
I will say that this is not one of his better clips.
I know Mike isn’t, but I think Mark is, as Dani pointed out. I just wanted to point it out again :-)
I actually agree with Mark’s points for the most part about men to stop behaving like boys and I think he hits the nail on the head on quite a few issues.
My experience in the majority of Christian circles I’ve been in is pretty similar to what Mark articulates. For the most part a lot of men do need a kick up the butts, even if Mark is a bit reductionistic in his presentation of it
Sorry, I shouldn’t just come in with unhelpful one liners like that.
Now that its not 5:30am I can flesh out my ideas a little more clearly.
“I have never felt I didn’t measure up until Driscoll”
I mean that for the most part any behavior– really just about any behavior– is ok for a guy in our society. It’s written off as, boys will be boys, or some other appeasing motto. What Driscoll does is take men out of the bible and show how we don’t match up. I don’t feel like his heart is to just belittle us for the sake of a good joke, but instead give us some good perspective.
Its plays out like this. For me, before I started to follow Christ, I would take a look at my classmates and friends and see how I would measure up. I always felt pretty good, I felt pretty manly and therefore thought I could do what men do, drink, have sex, you know the general. After becoming a Christian my eyes have been opened to many things, the greatest of which is the absolute scale of masculinity.
Other pastors implore you to change, Driscoll demands it. As a guy, I respond to challenges and demands, just wired that way.
I hope that proved a brief look into my heart about masculinity. I have been studying this quiet a bit in the couple years I have been a Christian, so I by no means think I have it all right, this is just my experience.
I loved this Snack Down. I am a mid-50’s woman who was raised by two really immature parents. I was abused by my female parent and my male parent pretended not to see! (The weak father and tyranical mother syndrome) To make a long story shorter, my parents divorced in time due to father’s adultry, in order to ease his suffering. He took it to be assuaged by other women on his travels. (“Oh poor boy, is the big bad wife “scarewing you”. Let me kiss your boo boo.” Now my father thought I needed to be rescued from the big bad world, It began in my early twenties and continued for many years. I was too messed up psychologically, to know that his was not what I had needed differently. What I find interesting is that I fit the profile of the female side of this. I had a long hard and tough time growing up and finally decided that I was tired of being a latent adolescent.
In a society manipulated by media, advertising, cultural ideas of what it is to be a man or woman, I experienced first hand what kind of damage this type of sociatal maladaption can do not only to a person’s potential, but to the society itself. I know many immature men and some immature women, who haven’t left home emotionally or mentally. I appreciated those hard words, and I do believe that his voice and this dialogue should be broadcasted to a wide-ranged age group, sociatal classes and to both sexes much more often. Thank you, Leah
thanks for sharing leah. sorry to hear about your family background.
i’m glad that driscoll’s hard words have been helpful for you.
keep trusting Jesus.
I thought I would join in, I have been listening to Mark’s sermons for over 6 months and I have to say that the way he deals with men is for me really good. As a few others have said I need a kick up the backside from time to time and I find the Men and Marriage sermon really helpful for that. The way he approaches the women in his congregation is entirely different, he is alot more gentle with them than he is with the men.
I’m actually listening to a sermon on pastors at the moment from him and this is a direct quote, “tell the men of other men who are exemplary and worthy of honour” the whole gist of about 5 minutes was on encouraging men to be better husbands and fathers and sons.
When he tells men to “man up” he almost always draws the correlation to Jesus as being the ultimate example of manhood. He may not in this particular video, but I can asure you that in almost every other sermon on the topic he does. Alot of what he says is that while Jesus had some atributes that we equate with women he was a masculine man, he was a blue colour worker, a carpenter, he suffered inordinate pain for his bride, etc. I hope that help to clear a few things up.
he suffered inordinate pain for his bride
and this, I think, is where he hits the nail on the head, and here we have not only the type of man Jesus was but the type of man he calls us to be and also the type of God we worship. I could probably leave out the blue collar carpenter bit, the similarities between first century carpentry and 21st century tradesmen is probably not that close.
But as much as this type of thing can sometimes annoy me, often his cultural analysis is spot on and it’s obvious many man has benefited from hearing his “man up” rants. I need to be careful of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater and be thankful for his ministry.
thanks jonathan for your comment. i’m glad driscoll’s preaching has been helpful for you too.
geoffc – I need to be careful of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater and be thankful for his ministry. – good call homeboy.
It’s interesting watching this from an “adolescents” point of view, as i fully understand where he is coming from, and where Alex and Brett Harris are coming from (love their book) in which that teenagers use their youth as a time to chill, relax, and muck around. I sometimes wonder if high school isthe best thing, and shouldn’t we go back to even just a few hundred years ago, when we could get a job and actually give to society, rather than just stuff around until Uni or our first full time job
I don’t agree with the moving out of home part. This is maybe manly in modern anglo-saxon culture.
but not in older traditional cultures.
In these cultures,a son will move out of home when he gets married. Example, i would never marry a woman who has moved out of home. To me has been away from the family, and is more likely to get up to bad behaviour. And her independence will be at odds with submitting to her husband.
hey jay – high school is still good… don’t go to the two extremes with it: don’t treat it like God, and don’t be a lazy bum.
michael – thanks for sharing how things are a little different in your context.
Hi All,
Honestly as a women in her late twenties I appreciate Mark’s sincere and honest rebuke of these guys. I’ve dated enough of them to know that someone in the church needs to speak out and start teaching Christian guys how to be “MEN of God”.
Too many ladies today are settling for Christian guys because they’ve never met a MAN of God. This is sad. So many times I’ve talked with my Christian girlfriends and we’ve asked the question, where are the MEN? Where are the MEN who know what it means to be a Godly husband and father?
About Mark’s style, and about the ladies laughing in the background… These “guys” need to realize that women are laughing at their behavior. IF women laugh at your behavior, it needs to be changed. Respect is earned and no woman laughs at the behavior of a Godly man. We admire and respect it and thank God for the men in our lives who have provided for us, protected us, led us and helped to cultivate us as Godly women.
So, no, I guess I don’t have a lot of sympathy for the guys who would be offended by Mark’s style. A MAN is not going to offended by any of this teaching because it is NOT who he is. A MAN is secure and confident enough to be challenged and to learn because a MAN of God will maintain a teachable spirit.
Praise Jesus for someone who will tell it like it really is and stop coddling guys. That’s my two cents.
hey rachael – thanks for jumping in with your comments. appreciate it.