17 Replies to “Poverty”

  1. let’s talk!
    not much happening yet.

    there are some churches that over-emphasise people’s physical needs and end up relegating the greatest need of all people to be forgiven of their sin.

    my guess is that in evangelical churches – that’s not us!

    therefore – what do we do to take seriously caring for widows, orphans, poor and engaging in other social action… but not neglecting the preaching of ETERNAL life???

    thoughts?

  5. hi Dave

    In Toward a Prophetic Youth Ministry: Theory and Praxis in Urban Context Fernando Arzola Jr. argues that there are three types of Urban youth ministry, the traditional conservative, which focus on the preaching of the gospel and saving people from hell. The liberal, which focuses on the socialdevelopment and well-being of youth, and the Scial/political that focus on structural change and justice in the community (this is off the top of my head, the book is in my room but Sars is asleep).

    He argues that all youth groups focus on one at the expense at the other two. He urges for a ‘prophetic youth ministry’ that combines all three. This is my question though, do you think if a group focuses on evangelism but ignores (or downplays the significance) childrens social needs as well as instilling in them a sense for justice, is it therefore not gospel centered? Does the gospel involve or three or is evangelism ‘the biggie’?

    My problem is that Arzola seems to lump the three in the same category. While the traditional conservative still may be missing the other aspects, it cannot be on par with the other two which seem to not be Christian.
    Or am I wrong, if we ignore social need and justice are we just as bad as those that ignore evangelism and callings for repentance?

    This is long. If you read it, I’m sorry.

    In his book he

  7. A quick thought: you’ve written that you want to talk about ‘Global Poverty’, but you quoted a verse from James that is about (presumably) local poverty. You said that these two are ‘related issues’.

    How related are they? To what extent ought we to lend weight in either direction? Which one do you spend energy on, Dave?

  8. In his book he

    geoff – that’s my favourite part of your comment…. it’s also my favourite part of his book!

    your comments make me think about culture and the role of Christians within a culture. are we supposed to transform the culture? some of the things that book are suggesting seem to be broader than just people in poverty… but social changes for the good of society.

    no answers. just pondering.

  9. hey justin.

    A quick thought: you’ve written that you want to talk about ‘Global Poverty’, but you quoted a verse from James that is about (presumably) local poverty. You said that these two are ‘related issues’.

    i don’t want to make much of a distinction at all. i figure that local poverty is always a subset of global poverty. what’s local on the central coast for me is global for you… and what’s local for you in new york is global for me.

    How related are they? To what extent ought we to lend weight in either direction? Which one do you spend energy on, Dave?

    so i reckon we are to be on about global… recognise the way we can send money and resources all over the world… but not to neglect the local poverty.

    maybe priorities??
    -local Christians
    -local all people
    -global Christians/all people

    why am i interested in more global needs – i recognise that those locally in some areas of need are unable to deal with their neighbours needs.

    where do i spend my energy?
    i recognise that i need to be doing more… but at the same i’m not heartless!
    -we have a sponsor child in uganda
    -i gave money to a lady in redfern yesterday
    -last year i went to the local soup kitchen once a week (mainly to hang out with one guy – but still able to provide for lots of people practically… and spiritually)
    -i’ve bought lunch for homeless guys a bunch of times
    -we give one offs at different times.
    there’s a few things that come to mind.

    where do you focus your energy?

  10. your comments make me think about culture and the role of Christians within a culture. are we supposed to transform the culture? some of the things that book are suggesting seem to be broader than just people in poverty… but social changes for the good of society.

    In chapel today someone had a mug of some christian organisation it’s the mission statement. “Transforming lives for Christ”. I wonder if it could be better by having “transforming the world for Christ”. Reading the minor prophets you definately get the vibe of God’s desire for social justice and equity.

    Is the bible’s main concern individual salvation, or is that something our individualised western culture has adopted as the main concern?

  11. Dave — thanks for your full response. You are doing well, mate. I’m all local right now. Local is what I can do (I presume that this helps global). I’m still processing all this. The value of local is that the care is real (not imagined), and the context can be articulated more fully (that is, that we are Christ’s, which is why we do what we do.)

    Geoffc —

    Is the bible’s main concern individual salvation, or is that something our individualised western culture has adopted as the main concern?

    That is the good question. I must say, however, that we neither transform lives, nor the world. God’s Spirit does this!

    Reading the minor prophets you definately get the vibe of God’s desire for social justice and equity.

    I wouldn’t have thought so. Or at least I wouldn’t have said it like this.

    God’s desire is for obedience to him. His problem with Israel is not that they have been ‘inequitable’ with their wealth, nor ‘socially unjust’. It is that they didn’t obey God when He required (in the Torah) that they serve and care for the poor and needy in their midst. They had become like the nations around them, rather than submitting to Yahweh and listening to his voice.

    That is — ‘social justice’ and ‘equity’ could, in theory, be spoken of with no reference to God. Your post makes it sound like God also has a desire for these universal values.

    But God is the one who determines what is just and what is right. So we are not ‘into social justice’, but we are ‘into God’! And if God says to care for the poor among you, then you’d better dang obey him!

    Make sense?

  13. hey guys – thanks for the responses.
    good stuff to think through…
    but i need to study for tomorrow’s greek exam…
    so will respond at greater length after that hurdle!!

    keep trusting Jesus

    dave

  14. That is the good question. I must say, however, that we neither transform lives, nor the world. God’s Spirit does this!

    Dave Dave Dave Dave Dave. Of course. I hope you would assume that I am aware of this, and don’t feel the need to correct me or set my paths straight? ;-)

    I wouldn’t have thought so. Or at least I wouldn’t have said it like this

    I didnt say it was the vibe, but it is definately there, and you cannot look past God’s desire or man to administrate justice

    Your post makes it sound like God also has a desire for these universal values.

    I’m not sue I understand. They are his values, and I hope my post didn’t contradict that

    But God is the one who determines what is just and what is right. So we are not ‘into social justice’, but we are ‘into God’! And if God says to care for the poor among you, then you’d better dang obey him!

    Well on that logic I guess I wouldn’t be able to say “I’m into love”, or “I’m into Service”, or “I’m into giving” . I can say I am into these things because I am into God. God is a God about justice and concern for the poor, therefore I am (or, should be)

    Your point about being obedient to God being what matters is precisely the point. God demands justice, and demands that we administer justice. We ought to do that yeh?

  15. Dave Dave Dave Dave Dave. Of course. I hope you would assume that I am aware of this, and don’t feel the need to correct me or set my paths straight?

    Actually, its Justin Justin Justin Justin Justin! And I don’t think that we have met, so I don’t know what you know! :) But even if you did, I was just pointing something out that I’ve been thinking about. I’m not worried about it — I just think that ‘transform’ is really a word that belongs to the Holy Spirit.

    Your point about being obedient to God being what matters is precisely the point. God demands justice, and demands that we administer justice. We ought to do that yeh?

    Of course. That is, as you say, my point. But I have nuanced the point. I’ve spent some time reading the Minor Prophets, and people regularly talk about them being the ‘social justice’ books. Esp Amos. They become the books that people go to to say — ‘look, God is into justice!’ But we get it the wrong way around.

    My point is well put in your last comment.

    God bless you, Geoffc.

  16. Ah Justin I apologise. I thought Dave said that, and I don’t mind being cheeky with him.

    It looks like we’re agreeing with each other.

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