I’ve been a bit discouraged by the number of nit-picking blog posts and comments during the last couple of weeks since Mark Driscoll’s visit to Australia. While the negative response of a number is discouraging, there is so much that’s encouraging!!
In the last couple of weeks I’ve spoken to so many people who are fired-up for living for Jesus and being on mission with Jesus. There is a infectious vibe amongst young guys who are keen to plant churches and grow up for the sake of Jesus and the gospel. For that I’m thankful to God for the way that he has used his servant Mark Driscoll in encouraging Australians in this regard. Here are Driscoll’s 18 points from the clergy conference, here’s the mp3 and here’s some stuff from Burn Your Plastic Jesus.
Who’s up for planting a church???
(pic from here)
It would be sin to be not up for church planting.
We all need to be up for it, and if we are not, we need to repent.
i recon i could plant a church
I’m up for a third.
It would be sin to be not up for church planting.
We all need to be up for it, and if we are not, we need to repent.
for sure.
but not everyone can head up a team.
it’s one thing to be willing to do it, but it’s another to realise that the best way to be part of a church plant may not be to head it up.
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vk – is that by yourself??
Hey DM — Great stuff. Be encouraged
(But don’t be discouraged by people commenting and working through the issues that Driscoll raised. That’s what the Scriptures urge us to do. It would be more dangerous for Jesus’ mission if we *didn’t* have some critiquing MD’s message, don’t you think?
I must admit, I live outside the Diocese, and even outside the country. So I’ve heard none of the talking on the ground. And I haven’t heard MD’s message, either. I think I got the gist of it by reading the 18 points, though. I haven’t heard any nit-picking either. Just genuine brothers testing the spirits, to see if they are from God.)
Praise Jesus for them, right?
Dave,
yep, for sure.
It is encouraging, mate. At least one bloke I know at college has been re-fired up to plant a church with some mates. It’s been real shot in the arm for him.
We have to ride this wave!
hey JM – that’s helpful. thanks.
as i think through critiquing stuff – i want to keep being humble in the way that i do it.
what we need is humble orthodoxy!
http://davemiers.com/2006/09/26/humble-orthodoxy/
http://davemiers.com/2007/09/01/humble-orthodoxy-2/
http://davemiers.com/2008/04/30/embrace-humble-orthodoxy/
hey BB – i know the person you’re talking about… and it’s very exciting!!
Count me in!
‘Course, we still need missionaries, people to continue existing churches, people to train church planters and the above, apologists, and senders.
do you guys think his critique on prohibiting structures and a restrictive church culture are right?
I’m up for it man. But I think I might be number 2.
Hey Dave, I know what you mean by feeling discouraged by some of the criticism floating around after Driscoll’s visit. Whilst there has been some balanced critique (ie from the Sola Panel blog), there was a guy at my church who blasted Driscoll’s Brisbane talk. I suspect the strong emotions were in reaction to some of the very cutting points Driscoll made during the talk. How I wonder if his reaction was more because Driscoll was so on point that it made him awfully uncomfortable with having to change! Oh well, we must be praying :)
shane said:
do you guys think his critique on prohibiting structures and a restrictive church culture are right?
i think so. i think that as a movement becomes more institutional, that will invariably happen. the key is to not be tied to structures such that they are the only option. we need guys to keep slogging it out in systems… but we also need guys to fly out from the systems and be creative and do stuff that can’t be done from within the system. i’m thankful to God for andrew heard that he left the system and began a new work on the central coast… did i become a Christian through it?? maybe… if nothing else it was by being part of ccec that i properly understood the death and resurrection of Jesus and how it ought to impact on every part of my life.
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Mike said:
I’m up for it man. But I think I might be number 2.
are you planning on staying in tassie? or are there other options? any plans for joining the other tasmanians at moore?
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Steven said:
I suspect the strong emotions were in reaction to some of the very cutting points Driscoll made during the talk. How I wonder if his reaction was more because Driscoll was so on point that it made him awfully uncomfortable with having to change!
good point. i know that there are times i respond strongly in my marriage are normally in context where i was so wrong and rowena’s words cut me because they are true!
steven – you are currently doing an traineeship with your church… is that right? what are you planning on doing next year and beyond?
Hey Dave,
Shoot me a quick email to point me to the critical blogs – I wanna read them for myself.
Some people just need to grow up. I reckon Driscoll is one of the best things to happen to the church in Australia. Was stoked the other day to see that He holds number one position in the Christian section of the Australain iTunes store.
So like him or lump him, he’s here to stay. But please send me those links.
Hey Dave
how are you brother?
i was there at Burn Your Plastic Jesus and thought Driscoll was good
im so pumped to plant a church when im older
Ed S. (an old poddy listener)
edward S… great to hear from you!!
how is the Christian group going at your school?
praying you’d keep being excited about proclaiming Jesus.
here the end of his 18 points
“Movements are led by a figurehead who defends the values, gives integrity, a person attacked, maligned, and appreciated when they are dead.
Organisations become institutions when they preserve the innovation of a prior generation. You love the system & you participate in it. There is a fear of failure, a preservation of old wins, founders friends take the seats of leadership and young blokes leave for a new movement. Those maintaining the insitution feel resentment but your permission is taking too long.
A museum exists to tell the stories of when God worked in the good old days.
Where are the aggressive young men.”
Now try inserting the following:
Movements are led by a figurehead who defends the values, gives integrity, a person attacked, maligned, and appreciated when they are dead. (Philip Jensen, Peter Jensen etc )
Organisations become institutions when they (the last version of syd angs and its affiliates ) preserve the innovation of a prior generation (Philip). You (Phil’s dopplegangers ) love the system & you participate in it. There is a fear of failure, a preservation of old wins (MTS, AFES, unichurches, church plants now established ), founders friends take the seats of leadership (long list here of kosher mates with battle scars) and young blokes leave for a new movement.(the great threat) Those maintaining the insitution feel resentment but your permission is taking too long.
A museum exists to tell the stories of when God worked in the good old days.(the good bits are not the orginal bits but the Philip bits… we’ve been hearing this for 20 years)
Where are the aggressive young men?
just a freinds cheeky thoughts ,,,what do you reckon ?
Does anyone else get worried when a critique – which may or may not be valid – is described as just nit-picking, or that if people have a reaction, its just that they are immature, scared of change, institutional, trying to defend the status quo, or whatever.
Let’s grow Christ’s Kingdom by proclaiming Jesus, growing mature believers who serve an proclaim Him. But the moment we belittle a criticism is a moment that we either become a cult (at best), or a people who grieve the Holy Spirit by stopping the testing of the spirits (at worst).
Plant and grow churches, but never belittle criticism, gentleman. The gospel is too important.
shane said:
just a freinds cheeky thoughts ,,,what do you reckon ?
very cheeky!
justin said:
But the moment we belittle a criticism is a moment that we either become a cult (at best), or a people who grieve the Holy Spirit by stopping the testing of the spirits (at worst).
i’m obviously not against criticism… the first line of this post was criticism! what i’m disappointed by is the manner of the criticism (hence my linking to joshua harris’ humble orthodoxy stuff) and i feel that there is a great danger of missing the many good things to come from driscoll’s 18 points because we are so concerned with defending each and every detail of what has been said in a way that we wouldn’t say it.
does that make sense?
justin
you make a good point – we must test the spirits – and hear what they are actually saying.
Like Dave my fear is that in jumping on the defensive too quickly there is the danger of dismissing all.
my concern is not just that we discern, but also the way in which we discern things.
we can defend the truth without becoing defensive and dismissive.
we can hold on to the truth in humility without smug haughtiness.
we can engage rightly in theological critique without being rude and self righteous.
frankly we in Sydney are rich in critiquing and poor at being critiqued.
It is exactly the point you make Justin – that criticism (from outlside) is being belittled (with our own exegetically superior criticisms).
the gospel is too important – not only in its integrity, but in its progress as we seek to reform our structures to promote more bold gospel initiatives.
if we don’t preserve it where in trouble and if we don’t pass it on to the next generation of pastors and planters we’re also in trouble.
blessings
Hey guys,
I haven’t seen any examples of anyone critiquing and then rejected the lot. Is there anyone who has done that?
Let the criticism take place!
Shane — not sure what you are saying, mate. Sydney is steeped in criticism. People critique is all the time. They critique it from the outside and the inside. We have copped it non-stop. And we take it from our own team. What do you mean by we are not good at receiving critique?
Wow, you certainly did a bit of site clicking to determine I was doing an apprenticeship! Yes, my wife and I are doing an apprenticeship together and we both plan on attending bible college next year – 99.99% certain we’ll be at Queensland Theological College. Incredibly exciting stuff happening there in recent times! After that, who knows, let’s see what doors God opens up for us :)
that’s very cool. i’ve heard some good stuff about QTC
keep trusting and proclaiming Jesus.
Dave – i feel totally the same re your original post
Justin – point noted re: criticism
but gee i wish some people would just stop talking about it, get up from their computers and go make disciples of all nations
Doesn’t Paul smash guys for having endless arguments which undermine the gospel and distract from mission? (1Timothy 1:4, 4:7; 6:4 2 Tim. 4:4; Titus 1:14; 2 Pet. 1:16; Titus 3:9).
Can legitimate gospel discussions turn into endless arguments which distract from mission?
Sure. We got to stop posting here then.
Get to it, mate! You are in the center of town? Fix, right? Plenty of work to do there.
Gone-sky.
yep toby
If it becomes academic and intellectual entertainment then that’s a good rebuke, but there is also a legit place for some healthy berean reflection that then drives deeper and more zealously in biblically informed mission.
You get the feeling that sometimes there is sharp shooting for sharp shooting’s sake…and with the danger of wasting ammo in wartime.
oh.. And a just a thought. Thinking and blogging can be a great way of discipling each other and the nations can’t it??
Dang.
One more thought as well: You can’t have it both ways.
You can’t say on one hand: Lets ‘ride this wave’ created by Mark; and then on the other, say that prolonged spirited discussion about his critique is ‘endless arguments’. That is a slightly disingenuous use of the those texts in Timothy and Titus.
I’m all for just getting on with mission, but some robust dialogue needs to take place as to how we do it. I know that you all agree with that. That’s not necessarily ‘endless arguments’. It may be Spirit-led. Even the stuff that critiques Mark’s critique.
Gone-sky (really, this time!)